Art Education in Times of Crisis

ART EDUCATION IN TIMES OF CRISIS

Art Education in Times of Crisis delves into issues revolving around education, social justice and student experience in times of crisis. This page features an archive montage of interview clips from the Oral History Archive at the Central Saint Martins’ Museum & Study Collection.
Kathryn Hearn, BALE & CINNABAR 3 (WALL PIECE), 2020. Hand-built flax paper porcelain, white, Dolomite semi-matt glaze with strata'd porcelain inclusions 7 x 33 cm. ©Kathryn Hearn.
Kathryn Hearn, BALE & FENCES BOWL, 2019Hand-built flax paper porcelain, dark & pale grey Dolomite semi-matt glaze22 x 12 cm. © Kathryn Hearn

Kathryn Hearn, BALE & CAGE VESSEL, 2020Hand-built flax paper porcelain, white, dark & pale grey Dolomite semi-matt glaze24 x 19 x 19 cm. © Kathryn Hearn
Martin Grierson, Reception Desk for UPI – Strand. Martin Grierson © 2015

Martin Grierson, Public seating for The Wallace Collection. Martin Grierson © 2015

Martin Grierson, “Chinese chair” A desk chair in macassar ebony and walnut. © Martin Grierson
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The montage is a soundscape of interview fragments shared by product designer Chris Wiggs, furniture and interior designer Martin Grierson, and ceramic artist Kathryn Hearn.

The soundscapes are based on the Oral History Archive in Central Saint Martins’ Museum & Study Collection.

Archive clips courtesy of the Museum & Study Collection, Central Saint Martins.

Theme tune by Hannah Kane.
Art Education in Times of Crisis Transcript

Theme Tune [00:00:00] [Mixed Voices]

Howard Asher [00:00:14] I arrive d at Central, which was a really amazing time to be there. Here was the tutors were very... they were all young, it was after the war. They've got new ideas. So instead of everything being prescriptive, you know, "this is the way to do it". It wasn't. They used to say, "you have to think". So it was a very exciting time.

Kathryn Hearn [00:00:36] ...when  I saw the job at Central advertised in The Guardian, and I thought, I won't get that from London people. 

Interviewer [00:00:43] What year was that? 

Kathryn Hearn [00:00:44] That would be 88, probably 1980. 

Interviewer [00:00:47] And so had you moved down to London already? 

Kathryn Hearn [00:00:50] No I was still living up North. ...

Howard Asher [00:00:52] ...which is quite amazing. So this degree show, student work. Um, and I kept records of everything. It was just there. And it was, uh, my friend Maureen Weyman, who was at the Manchester University. I was just thinking about it and she said, "you need to donate it". And actually, I didn't see what it was. But it is a beginning to an end...

Bobby Hilson [00:01:20] ...some of the technical stuff. There was one quite amusing one that we were told to remember, this very early on. I was told to do what is called a bound buttonhole, which you do by hand. And I did it and she said, "fine, now do ten". And I said, "No!" [laughs] I do remember this day, Sally, because she was there when I came back to teach. And... 

Interviewer [00:01:47] Do you remember her name? 

Bobby Hilson [00:01:48] Yes, I do. 

Interviewer [00:01:49] Who was it? ...

Kathryn Hearn [00:01:50] It was amazing because students didin't get as involved in my subject. So that was the reason I came to Central and arising, then found out they had the intention because the London Institute formed and they were deciding that they were going to get rid of the Islamic schools central and they were going to just have the Sonics at Camberwell. 

Interviewer [00:02:12] Hold on a minute. Did, um, did you know about that before you made the application ...

Howard Asher [00:02:17] It's a really weird feeling because I know I did it, but I look at them and think I don't know how I did it, really. You know, you just do it don't you. But it's lovely that it's here. It's fantastic. 

Martin Grierson [00:02:31] Then the war came. So my parents sent my brother and I to stay with my grandmother in the final common. We went to [...] School in Beaconsfield for about a year. 

Rob Kesseler [00:02:47] ... It puts people off. 

Kathryn Hearn [00:02:48] Yes. I mean, I can sit around and decided as a student, I really didn't want to plan. 

Interviewer [00:02:54] It would have meant you coming down to London, wouldn't it? 

Kathryn Hearn [00:02:57] It wasn't to do that. It didn't feel like the right place for me at the time. I remember thinking there were a lot of men ...

Giles Last [00:03:02] I was fairly dyslexic and I was then my family found the friends Quaker school system, which in the early 70s was one of the few educational, um, kind of, um, ideas that believed in dyslexia as something that needs solving. And I was lucky enough to be given that scholarship ...

Martin Grierson [00:03:28] neighbour who taught because at Keswick School said, "why don't you send them up there, safe up and Cumberland". So we were sent off to Keswick School, which was a boarding school. And after the war, stayed there and completed our education in 1949 

Bobby Hilson [00:03:48] ... And I say, "well, I shall not be taking my coat off". It was voyages inside. I mean, that was the way one was. It was all speed, speed, speed. And I think it's probably my character anyway,. 

Interviewer [00:04:03] Was that the time of the new look?

Bobby Hilson [00:04:05] Yes! No the new look actually happened when I was still in Plymouth.

Interviewer [00:04:10] It wasn't much space. but it's ironic. Later on, of course, we have the same space and a lot more students! 

Rob Kesseler [00:04:17] and mainly women 

Kathryn Hearn [00:04:18] and mainly women, yes... 

Giles Last [00:04:21] ...It didn't matter about your financial background, though, even approach, but that obviously was becoming very quickly when I entered the course that was, um, uh, being withdrawn. I mean, during the Thatcher years, I think funding to education changed significantly. And again, I don't remember the details, but certainly grants were running out really quickly. 

Kathryn Hearn [00:04:45] When it became apparent that they were going to change the course and they were going to shut our course and extend the product design course. 

Interviewer [00:04:54] Because the London Institute had already come into being. 

Kathryn Hearn [00:04:57] So there was to ceramics courses and they weren't uncomfortable about that. And so the discussion was, was to make this sort of uber product design BA and not... So in a way, 

Bobby Hilson [00:05:11] ..the new look was... It made one feels different. It's very different. that was so exciting to actually be in on that,. 

Interviewer [00:05:18] I suppose one thought austerity time was over. 

Bobby Hilson [00:05:22] Yes. Yes. And the fact it was so much younger because we all dressed you know, if you were 16, you could have been thirty-five. The way people were dressed, it was... And then and the makeup, the red lips ...

Martin Grierson [00:05:35] ...were of Camberwell at that time. So he knew him quite well. And when Johnston to moved to the Central, which everybody regarded as the best school in Europe, my father had a chat with Johnston and got me in at a very young age of 16, just about to turn 17. And I hadn't done the the required one or two years in another art school...

Bobby Hilson [00:06:07] ...one worry without the course of tram would have unfortunately had a tiny waist. But you could wear it with petticoats and ballet slippers and you suddenly felt young and, you know, it was much, much more the things that was a marvelous liberation. 

Kathryn Hearn [00:06:22] They were very much the same. What actually, Camberwell was going to run its course and we are going to provide some ceramic design within product design. 

Rob Kesseler [00:06:30] We were never part of the discussion. [...]

Kathryn Hearn [00:06:32] NO, I think it was Bob [...] who was on the academic plan. He was a technician. So we didn't have any kind of say on that. And so we we were offered the opportunity to either go down to Camberwell to teach at Camberwell or to stay at Central and be part of the new, brave new world. 

Interviewer [00:06:51] So, um, who was running the course at Camberwell ?

Amal Ghosh [00:06:54] ...on second year and third year, have a break down. And he thought it would be very good to have somebody who has some kind of idea of therapy. 

Kathryn Hearn [00:07:07] ... culture is so important to else because it's about eating, yes. And how people live their lives in the domestic context. Yes. So it's a very sort of real place to talk about difference. And this is a good place to have that ...

Amal Ghosh [00:07:22] ...kind of wild time. And that I think it was, there was a very strong view that they needed some support. And at that time, there wasn't anything called a counselor or counseling. No. So this will become part of that. But I also wanted to do it. And it was really because it was partly to do with 

Giles Last [00:07:49] of students make um. And the ratio is hugely different. Every word through it. um, you know, there are ways there are ways of keeping the qualities, some of the qualities going. I think certainly, I think, in a funny kind of way, we weren't taught as much, even though there was that many staff. because it was much more about finding out...

Bobby Hilson [00:08:17] the one I made, it was only one that remained with me all my life. I mean, one friend, I mean, which was [...], who went to [...]. And he was such fun, so talented and... 

Martin Grierson [00:08:33] The time in the workshop, the wood workshop at the Central as a very young student. But made four or five pieces of furniture. And learned without realizing it, all the techniques of how to make furniture by hand and by machine. So that, when 20 years later, I decided to...

Kathryn Hearn [00:09:02] ... But the college made the decision when [...] moved us out here, they made the decision that they wanted to be about workshops, about making. That was a very important kind of element of what we do. So it's going to be hard for it to changes. I think what we would be worried about is that we just became a service to everybody else, because that's not the subject. That's, using clay and maybe making firing stuff, but it's not necessarily the subject. No, we think it's really important to have a subject because they have depth rather than kind of like a switch with my 

Bobby Hilson [00:09:38] ... My life. I met my husband at the Royal College. the Royal College dances. And we all go, all the students used to make, I mean, I used to arrive so late because having stitched myself into whatever I was when... 

Interviewer [00:09:54] Was this at Chelsea arts ball? 

Bobby Hilson [00:09:56] No, it wasn't Chelsea Art School. It was the Royal College. They always had a dance. everybody else there is. 

Rob Kesseler [00:10:03] ...College has a very different background. Is not the kind of typical central St. Martin's head of college. He's more active in the world globally, I would say, and...

Interviewer [00:10:13] What's his field? 

Rob Kesseler [00:10:15] Architecture.

Kathryn Hearn [00:10:15] But he's very design responsible, so he thinks that we need to be much more aware of the problems and responsibilities. Which obviously we would completely agree with...

Chris Wiggs [00:10:32] on things I'd worked out during my apprenticeship was I was the world's worst employee. I ran my own businesses. I was making leather jackets. I was making guitar amplifiers. I was doing all of these things while I was a kid, you know, in my late teens and things. And I was doing it all while I was employed. But as an apprentice and you could pretty much get away with murder. And but I did realize it was a very unsatisfactory way to live your life. So what I had to do was to take a big step. But obviously I was born in and I 

Kathryn Hearn [00:11:05] ... Husband is a glass blower. And he has people, I mean, we do here. We have students all the time saying "I just want to come and do this". And they've not even been to the library. They've not even actually informed themselves about anything. And you say, "how can I have a half an hour conversation with you, which I don't have with my own students, when you haven't even bothered to find out about the subject?" so it's a bit like shopping 

Giles Last [00:11:29] whatever medium their projects leads them to really, despite what course they're on, in some ways. 

Interviewer [00:11:35] So how many students are on the course at the moment? 

Giles Last [00:11:38] There is a hundred and thirty. There's fourty in the first year. Forty one in the second year. Forty eight in the third year so... 

Interviewer [00:11:51] You imply that would be slightly smaller at King's Cross. 

Giles Last [00:11:55] I think that's the idea 

Kathryn Hearn [00:11:57] collaborate, having interdisciplinary work, that you've got to be careful that you don't get completely rid of subjects because then there's nobody to collaborate with. And so... 

Chris Wiggs [00:12:08] You do your all of your formative years of Walthamstow. It's a working class environment. And there's nothing like being part of the working class environment that people want you to not leave, and that's being polite. So if you should ever show any side of kind of putting your head above the parapet, there were people to make sure you stayed with your head down at one level. They "kept you in your place". Oh, you heard that all the time. You do feel both within and outside your own place and all that kind of... And people get quite cross about it. But I just felt that there was no future in being paid a working wage and the anything that was ever going to happen to me wasn't going to work. If someone told me to do it, if someone told me to do anything...

Rob Kesseler [00:12:55] ...off the agenda. so whereas people might have done portrait school, they all went. [...] And so you also have to consider the point of entry. So if you said it's a very tight design course, a lot of people are not going to apply. So you have to have to pitch in...

Kathryn Hearn [00:13:15] because in a way, I said to Jane Rapley about three years ago that, you know, we've had our backs against the wall for 20 years and [...], you know, we constantly had to feel that they were protecting and, you know, a subject and the relevance of still being a subject, you know, and that's you just it's very demoralizing. Very demoralizing. So you've got to kind of keep that belief going. And in a way... 

Giles Last [00:13:42] I think one of the amazing things about the growing number and how the students have become from all around the world is the diversity that breeds that, you know, students from...

Bobby Hilson [00:13:57] ...social life, too. Because Freddy Gore, who was the head of painting used to do wonderful pantomimes and things. It was a fun place to be. It was. And I remember it mainly for being enormous fun and not working as hard as ....

Kathryn Hearn [00:14:13] no it's year to year to. So last year, you know, the workshops, the windowless workshop is a bit of a shock. And we have less space and we have we're in a program, so we share this space with other people. So this year you have to put up against product design choices, people. So last year was really, really, really hard, wasn't it Rob? But this year I think has been more manageable. It's still got some edges to it, but in a way we're getting to know how to use a place and how to be. And also of course this year would be the last year that...

Rob Kesseler [00:14:49]  almost half of their course have no textiles background. So they're coming in looking at sustainability a lot within that course. Sustainability and ceramics, what does that mean ? [...] so I think the concerns might be similar when you're an artist or a designer and the point to which you approach it from, and I suppose because of all the work I've been doing the last 10 years in collaboration with scientists, which is another kind of big area in itself, but also the notion of collaboration, people working together, much more innovative in designing. 

Kathryn Hearn [00:15:25] The workshop. So the space hasn't been the same, it is more constrained. Um, and we've had to and we haven't had this kind of extra space that we always had, which was on the eigth floor. And we know we haven't had our own office. You know, we've always shared an office. We've never been separated out. But now we're with, you know, two of the courses in that office and so does change and we more fraught, I think, because of it. But then again, people look when they come, it's great that people go, oh, what a fantastic building. that makes you feel great. you have to stop yourself saying yes. 

Giles Last [00:16:02] No one would do that now. It's maybe only three years ago they would have done it. Three or four years ago, the silver quadrupled in price. and they do go and have a look at the price and they come back, thinking that they wouldn't be able to eat for two weeks if they did that. 

Interviewer [00:16:16] So does it mean that there is a little small core who can afford to do this? 

Giles Last [00:16:21] I think oh, absolutely. 

Interviewer [00:16:23] I suppose there always will be 

Kathryn Hearn [00:16:26] ...but then again, our fees are nine thousand pounds and that essentially covers what we would have had before. So I suppose it depends what next year's budget is that's going to be more problematic maybe. And it also depends on our international members of state haven't grown massively. And I think that the university doesn't want to grow too many, too many numbers. So all those years of the numbers going up. They're going down. 

Rob Kesseler [00:17:02] I think Sculpture. It's a sculpture department. So within fine arts. Concerns are I would say predominantely more theory driven where science might be more context driven. So who is it? You can call it art, but who is going to use it? Has it access to it? How how do you use that to further your career? 

Interviewer [00:17:26] So did you have parties at St. Martins?

Bobby Hilson [00:17:27] Yes, we had wild dances at St Martins. And all sorts of people. I mean, we used to be inundated with medical students who thought, you know, or were all told what: sexy girls would be in the fashion school, and we all thought they were absolute idiots and [...] 

Interviewer [00:17:46] Can we just have a few minutes where we talk a bit about the future? 

Rob Kesseler [00:17:52] So, yes, I think in a sense, the future yet to be decided, but I think it will change. 

Voice Over [00:18:02] Arts education in Times of Crisis is a soundscape composed of clips from the oral history archive in the museum and study collection at Central St. Martins. The voices and accounts you've just heard belong to Chris Wiggs, Martin Grierson, Kathryn Hearn, Bobby Hillson, Amal Ghosh, Giles Last, Rob Kesseler and Howard Asher.
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ART EDUCATION IN TIMES OF CRISIS

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